06: Jeremy Larson
The Pitchfork reviews editor talks about running withdrawal, getting high off of shoegaze bike rides, and listening to your body. He also shares a few excellent running playlists!
I’m Arielle Gordon, a music journalist and (very) amateur runner. Running Up That Hill is a newsletter in which I try to connect those two things by interviewing folks in the broader music world about their running habits, tips, and tricks.
Jeremy Larson is, frankly, one of the reasons I started this newsletter. His recommendation of listening to Double Cup to keep a moderate pace has greatly improved my longer runs; his online updates about marathon training were optimistic reminders that there was a world beyond the snarky, acrid confines of Music Twitter. As the editor of Pitchfork’s notorious reviews section, Larson strikes a careful balance between giving exposure to new artists and making space for careful reflection of established acts. His Sunday Review on Talk Talk’s Spirit of Eden still sticks out in my mind for its ability to describe the note-perfect transcendence of the record: “The thrill and stasis of a held breath carry the album from beginning to end.” Like Mark Hollis’s 1988 classic, Larson as a runner prizes exacting, Type A routines while leaving room for mind-altering, guitar-induced psychedelia.
When did you get into running?
I started running seriously about four years ago, right when I quit smoking. I smoked for 12 years or so, had tried to quit a bunch of times, never really took. I realized that I just needed to plug that hole with something else, so I decided to make that running. I have a very addictive personality so just giving myself that dopamine fix, that runner’s high has really helped. To be perfectly honest it’s created a kind of unhealthy relationship to running, something I’m working on fixing right now. When I get injured (which happens a lot) I fall into a deep depression. I mean literally I have withdrawal symptoms and I become a terrible person to be around. Life gets very dark and it’s hard for me to think about anything else but being injured and not running. Which, as brain science will tell you, makes the injury last even longer. But as with any unhealthy codependent relationship, the lows are low and the highs are very, very high.
Can you describe a typical (or average) running schedule for you in a given week?
I try to run six days a week when I’m healthy, Tuesday through Sunday. I’m very Type A about this, so I plan out my running schedule 8-12 weeks in advance. Usually if I’m training for a race or a time trial, it’s three easy runs, two workouts (speed work, fartlek, tempo, hill repeats, something to get the HR up) and a long run on the weekend. I also strength train at least two days a week—best case scenario I can go to a gym and lift weights, otherwise I’ll do a bodyweight routine at home. Right now I’m coming off a calf strain so I’m only running three times a week, and doing these insane 1-2 hour workouts on an indoor bike that make me fully disassociate—I had on a shoegaze playlist the other day and I honestly was sweating and working so hard it felt like I was coming up on mushrooms. But adding biking into my training has helped me stay healthier because you can bust ass on a bike and have a shorter recovery time than if you ran a very intense running workout. I highly recommend adding in more low-impact cross-training if you can: biking, swimming, elliptical.
Jeremy kindly shared almost a dozen running playlists along with his tips and tricks for this interview—I’ve linked a few throughout his interview. There’s something for everyone, from gnarled post-punk to bleeding heart emo, from nu-metal to new wave.
Can you tell me about your first marathon? How did you prepare, what did you listen to, and why did you do it?
The first marathon I did was spring of 2019, the Milwaukee Marathon. I had run a couple of half marathons at that point—those are big confidence boosters. As soon as you run a moderately successful half, I think it really opens up the possibility of doing a full marathon. Of course the marathon is a totally different beast, but if you’re already doing 13.1, why not see if you can do it twice?
I did a training program that I found online, which was … not ideal. But I stuck with it. I got injured because I wasn’t doing any strength and I wasn’t running slow enough. I barely got in a long run because of an achilles strain. I did half of the runs on an elliptical at a Crunch Fitness in Brooklyn. So I showed up to the start line just thinking “Ok, will just try to finish with a smile on my face.” I gutted it out and came in just under four hours, which I was super proud of.
One thing I do is I make playlists that correspond to certain cadence. I was trying to get my average cadence up from 160 steps per minute to 175 steps per minute, so I would just find songs that were at the tempo and would try to match my steps to the beat.
One thing about music and running is that the normal rules that govern your taste in your life go totally out the window. I try to find ways of incorporating “good” songs that I could defend while standing still onto playlists, but sometimes running just demands a totally different aesthetic. Sometimes I need Jared Leto screaming about how I’m the king of promise, or the cancelled guy from Trapt screaming about being headstrong. Running (and weight lifting, as well) is a great excuse to dabble in low brow music, just things that have no use in your sedentary life. My brain doesn’t really respond well to subtlety when I’m looking for workout music.
But if I’m going on an easy run, that’s when I’ll listen to new music for work because I’m not really huffing and puffing. I can just relax into a chill pace and focus on the music a bit more, and just check in with my posture every once and a while. It is funny, two of my favorite songs to listen to while running have some antithetic messaging—Cloud Nothings’ “Wasted Days” where Dylan’s screaming, “I thought I would be more than this,” and Fat Joe’s “Slow Down,” which, well, you can guess.
What’s the run you’re proudest of?
That first marathon. I didn’t really know what I was in for. When I got past mile 20 in the marathon, it’s really unlike anything else I have ever experienced. One side of your brain is just screaming at your body to stop and you have to just ignore that totally and keep going. I was really proud of myself for just pushing into the red and living in that discomfort for those last 6 miles, which felt endless at the time. I suppose I kind of chase that high a lot, because it is so painful but really rewarding to find that you have this secret chemical and psychological and physical setting in your body that allows you to do something extraordinary. I spend so much of my life just staring at words and figuring out where they go and which ones to use—having this other part of my life where I’m just destroying my muscles for sick pleasure is a really great counterbalance.
Do you have any running goals?
I would love to qualify for the Boston Marathon. I might be a year or so away from that right now, but I think that would be a really big milestone. I’m doing my first Olympic Triathlon this summer, I hope to put up a respectable time with that, though I don’t think I’ve ever swam more than a 100 meters ever.
What, if anything, do you listen to when you run regularly?
On easy runs, I’ll either listen to a podcast or new music. A nice, chill, 45-60 minute run is a great time to just put on something that’s coming out in a couple weeks and give 80% of your attention to it. I also have a bunch of playlists that I rotate if I just want to listen to something I know.
What, if anything, do you think about while you run?
The times where I’m not listening to anything are usually when I’m doing a hard workout. Those are times where I just need to mentally focus on what I’m doing on the road or track. I end up… not thinking about anything? Sometimes I’ll get a funny idea for a dumb joke and I’ll pull out my phone and write it down. Sometimes I’ll try to run to just untangle some ideas from a piece of writing. But most of the time, I’ll just get four seconds of one song stuck in my head on a loop for an hour.
Do you find that running helps aid your writing or editing in any way? Do you think about reviews while you’re running?
I’m always thinking about reviews.
If you could go on a run with any musician, dead or alive, who would it be?
The easy answer would be marathoner and musician Joe Strummer. I don’t really run with people that often, and I don’t know if running with a musician would be that interesting to me. Would love to chop it up about training and running and the Lifestyle with anyone in the music industry or otherwise. I get really amped just seeing someone have a lot of passion about running.
Is there any running equipment that’s changed your runs for the better or that you’d recommend to other runners?
Body Glide anti-chafing on any runs over an hour. I really like UCAN fueling products, would be nice to get a sponsorship from them. If you’re still running in cotton t-shirts, you gotta make the switch to polyester moisture-wicking activewear. The day I did that, the day my laundry situation became a lot more tenable.
What advice would you give to new runners or folks who are anxious to start?
Great question. I have found that runners are such a supportive group of people—if you can find any running groups around your neighborhood, it can be really fun and helpful to run with people. Especially if it’s like, ok they have a group run at 8am on Saturday, gonna hold myself accountable to that. I love the Crown Heights Running Club, they are for all levels and just truly a great group of runners.
The other piece of advice I would say is to take it easy, take it slow, and listen to your body. “Don’t run someone else’s run.” If you’re feeling some knee or shin or ankle pain, don’t run through it. Give your body a rest until you feel like you are healthy again. Warming up and cooling down are incredibly important, and when you feel like you are ready, try to incorporate some kind of strength routine to your week.
This is going to sound super techno-dystopian and I’m sorry in advance but if you’re predisposed to use social media apps, I would consider joining Strava. I think it’s a really supportive, positive, encouraging experience where you can connect with runners and get encouragement. Also if you like data and are very Type A like me, it’s great for that.
Also just email me, I’m happy/eager to talk about running, training, strength, marathons, all that.
Follow Jeremy Larson on Twitter.